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Transcript: One Mind, Many Matters (EP78)

 

Intro (with music): Welcome to The Culture of Things podcast with Brendan Rogers. This is a podcast where we talk all things, culture, leadership and teamwork across business and sport.

Voiceover: To all of our loyal listeners, The Culture of Things podcast will now also have specific episodes produced for Youtube. To ensure you don’t miss out on this exclusive Youtube content, head on over to Youtube, click the subscribe button and hit the notification bell. Now, let’s get into the episode…

Brendan: When Marc, our Producer, and I were preparing for this interview, Marc came up with the title - ‘One Mind, Many Matters’.

This sums up our next guest perfectly.

Barnaby Howarth has one strong mind, that has had to endure many matters of hardship.

He’s handled them with strength and resilience, and along the way, has had a loyal support network to bring him back when that strength and resilience has waned.

If you’re watching on YouTube, I’d love you to watch the whole interview. I also understand you may want to check out a specific part. If that’s the case, go to the chapters in the description below and choose the part you want to see.

Barnaby has an amazing story!

He was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in his teens, signed by the Sydney Swans at 18, suffered a horrific brain injury which left him with a permanent disability, nursed his first wife through a terminal illness, became a globally recognised strength and resilience keynote speaker, hosts a very successful podcast called Everyday Greatness, and has now re-married and is a proud husband and step-father to his teenage daughter.

As you’ll learn during the interview, Barnaby is proud to be an everyday Joe bag of doughnuts. He’s a REAL person, planting seeds of small goodness and watching them grow into big greatness.

If Barnaby doesn’t inspire you to Everyday Greatness, nothing will!

His one mind has overcome many matters.

After the interview, I share my three key takeaways. Share your takeaways with me via email or you can put them in the YouTube comments.

I hope you enjoy the interview. Let’s get into it.

Hello and welcome to The Culture of Things podcast. I'm your host, Brendan Rogers, and this is episode 78. Today, I got to talk to a chap called Barnaby Howarth. Barnaby, how are you, mate?

Barnaby: Magnificient, thank you.

Brendan: Fantastic.

Barnaby: Thank you for having me, Brendan.

Brendan: My pleasure. I have been really looking forward to this conversation today. You and I haven't known each other directly. It's actually the first time we met, but you're a family member of a very, very close friend of ours, Shea Wittig and Richard, cousins (I think) from memory. She's talked about you heaps of times. She's spoken you up a hell of a lot, so please don't disappoint today, mate.

Barnaby: Jesus, a lot of pressure. If there's one person I don't want to let down, it's Shea Wittig.

Brendan: And Shea’s also our copywriter for the show. She’ll do the blogs and all the sort of stuff for this. We've added a bit more pressure on her because she cares about both of us so much that she wants to make sure she does a fantastic job for us.

Barnaby: All right. Good luck, Shea. I like to swear, stumble out of words, and just make it challenging for you.

Brendan: Make it tough for her, mate. Make it tough. We're going to dive in. We're focused today on leading with strength and resilience. There have been a number of things throughout your journey of life. We're going to unpack that a little bit and talk through that.

Mate, what I do want to ask you, first of all, before we go to some of that detail, is you've got a fantastic podcast called Everyday Greatness, and you mentioned this term one time, a Joe Bag O’Doughnuts. What is that?

Barnaby: I saw a lot of motivational speakers and used to watch documentaries about Nelson Mandella, Michael Jordan, and all of the high-flying celebrity people. I always thought I was missing something. I always thought if I want to be like them, I define some mystical X-factor, some aggression, some strength, some resilience that nobody else had.

I've realized over my journey that all the strength I needed to get through my challenges was inside me the whole time. I used to think it wasn't enough just being a regular Joe Bag O’Doughnuts, but now I think everyday Joe Bag O’Doughnuts have everything they need inside them to do whatever they want to do in life.

Brendan: It's a great point. You are a pretty fantastic Joe Bag O’Doughnuts, I have to say. Let's start unpacking  sort of barns and this Joe Bag O’Doughnuts stuff. There are a number of events as I alluded to that shaped you to the way you are today. I'm not going to go back to when you were born. Let's start at 16–17 years old leading into your AFL career and that year with the Swans. In that timeframe, 2–3 years leading into that, what preparations and mindset did you have as a healthy young man making it into the AFL scene?

Barnaby: I had to go back to the Joe Bag O’Doughnuts thing, but all I was doing was trying my hardest and trying to be proud of myself whether I won, lost, or drew. That's what I thought wasn't enough.

I was diagnosed with diabetes at 14 and I thought well that's me done. I wanted to play AFL, but I thought I didn't have that mystical X-factor that I needed. So I just kept battling as long as I could, giving life the best that I could, and I wasn't not trying. I was working my bum off. I was trying really hard. I was giving everything I had. I was being respectful of the people around me and just tried to make people's lives around me happier.

I thought there’s no way in hell that's going to be enough to play AFL footie. I was drafted when I was 18 by the Swans for one season in their supplementary list. Those doubts that I had where I needed were confirmed when I saw a 17-year-old Adam Goodes training, his first junior AFL, leaning over the fence, gasping for breath like he was running out of it.

His face was bloodied and bruised after a really competitive drill. He was up against an old, seasoned, hardened veteran from the Swans. They both had to fight hell for leather for the footie to get it back to the coach. The veteran just saw Goodes as fresh meat, so he just destroyed him.

Goodes was up leaning on the fence gasping for air, looking like he'd just been hit by a wrecking ball, and the coach blew his whistle and said, all right, next drill. Let's go boys. Goodes stood up, jogged off, and took part in the next drill like everybody else. I thought that is the X-factor. That's what I’m missing.

I've seen over time and I actually interviewed Adam in one of my episodes of Everyday Greatness, and found that he doesn't have an X-factor. He's probably the best AFL football player I've ever seen, but he doesn't have anything different that anybody else doesn’t. He's just a really good man. He's a really good, respectful human being.

He tried really hard. He gave everything he had every time he came to training and ended up winning two Brownlows, two Premierships, and the Australian of the Year award. That small stuff inside you when I was growing up that I thought wasn't enough is all a person needs.

Brendan: Barns, have you ever traced back and thought about what shaped your belief that you needed this X-factor? Now that these people that inspire greatness and achieve greatness always had this X-factor?

Barnaby: I have thought back. I was actually with a Speakers Bureau when my keynote speaking career just started. I was signed by the Speakers Bureau and I was spreading all this stuff here, proud of being an everyday Joe Bag O’Doughnuts and trying my hardest to be proud of myself.

The owner of the bureau called me to the office and said go through your speech with me. I gave a 30-second elevator pitch. I said, basically, I tell audiences to try their hardest to be proud of themselves. She looked me dead in the eye and said no, not strong enough. That's when she asked me to go and trace back what I had done and what flicked the switch to make me more driven and more determined.

There was nothing there. I look back, I've been surrounded by really good people my entire life like Shea, like my immediate family. I haven't done anything spectacular or different from anybody else. I just tried to get things done.

I was diagnosed with diabetes at 14. When I faced that challenge, I just thought I wanted to just keep putting one foot in front of the other. I was really enjoying the life I was living so I just want to keep living it.

Tracing back, it's a hard thing to do because there's just nothing there. It's just everyday stuff that you try to make good habits along the way, and make good decisions, and all of that small, fluffy, intangible stuff has been enough to get me where I am today.

Brendan: When you were 14 and that diagnosis happened with Type I diabetes, tell us what that was like?

Barnaby: I really doubted that I had the strength I needed to get through it. I had these stars in my eyes. I wanted to be an AFL footballer, but I thought diabetes meant I'm going to have to wrap myself in cotton wool and stop playing at the level I've been playing at. I didn't do anything differently. I just kept on trying my hardest, was respectful of people around me, [...] on my team in the opposition. I thought this was just all a waste of time.

At 14, you can see the kids that are going to excel, you can see how they are getting ahead, and I just kept looking around me. All the people I was competing for spots with to get into the AFL seemed to be rushing past me. They all seemed to have the thing I thought I was missing, more aggression, more ruthlessness, and some mystical X-factor.

When I was diagnosed with diabetes, I wasn't disappointed about diabetes. I was disappointed because I was pretty certain I wasn't going to have the strength I needed to get through it and play AFL footie.

Brendan: Tell us about your mindset. That young teenager and hearing that diagnosis which you just explained, but I guess the journey of that mindset from when you've first heard that diagnosis and those things starting to get into your head that you just shared. Where did the shift start to say this is just another barrier I've got in my life and I'm going to deal with it.

Barnaby: I think my diagnosis at 14 was the start of creating a mindset. When I was 14 I didn't have a mindset. My parents and my immediate family always used to make sure they didn't get too down on things. When I got diabetes, I just shrugged my shoulders and thought that sucks, but don't eat too much sugar, have your insulin on your side regularly, and do what needs to be done. Go ahead.

I had no idea if it was going to work. In fact, I was pretty sure it wasn't going to work, but there was no mindset. I never looked at myself in the mirror and said come on, you can do this. It was just day by day, if your sugar is high, go for a run. If it's low, have some sugar and get back on track. It was just every single day doing the best you can with whatever was on your plate that day.

Brendan: Let's keep going through this journey of Barn’s life, mate, because there's been a few other nasty turns as well. You're 18, you're getting a chance to potentially play first grade AFL and you have 12 months there. Then something happened in 2005, I think it was. Can you tell us a bit more about that moment in your life?

Barnaby: Sure. I'll lead to that in a second, but after I was dropped by the Swans after that one year, over the next weeks and months, I just couldn't shake the feeling that maybe I didn't try hard enough. I think I was a bit starstruck seeing [...] Paul Kelly, Paul Roos, and [...]. I posted half of them on my walls.

I moved to Victoria and I did a pre-season with the Melbourne Demons under Neale Daniher. I wasn't picked up in Melbourne, I signed a contract with [...] in the VFL and I worked my bum off. I did everything I could possibly do, all the extra training, all the extra skills, weights running. I didn't drink too much. I ate right.

At the end of those two years, I didn't even come close to attracting any attention from the AFL clubs. I moved back to Sydney and rejoined my career for my local footie club, the local Pennant Hills Demons. I was in 96 games for Pennant Hills, I was club captain, and our first grade team was undefeated halfway through the year. I was bashed in an alcohol-filled game attack and had a stroke.

I was out having what I thought was a quiet drink with three mates of mine. Then on the way home, one of my mates didn't like the way a kid was looking at him when he walked out of a convenience store. He went over and had an angry word and things got out of hand really quickly.

My mate threw this kid on the ground and started kicking him on the head while he was down on the road. I ran over and got my mate, telling him he was being a peanut, and dragged him back to where my other two mates were. The four of us started walking away.

We only made it about 200 meters down the road though. We heard a heap of angry shouting coming from behind us. We turn around to see this kid's group going from 5 to about 20. Some of them were yelling abuse and some of them had their shirts off. They all looked like they wanted to punch somebody. It wasn't too long before they got their wish.

Two of my mates did what we all should have done and ran. But myself and one other guy stayed behind and tried to talk the mob down. My mate was hit from behind and while he was lying on the ground unconscious, some guy stood around him and started kicking him in the head.

I ran over [...] minutes after the fight, my [...] carry on 100% normally for the next seven days. [...] footie that weekend, went back to work the following Monday, but the whole time I was running around telling people how lucky I have been that this mob didn't have weapons.

My [...] artery in my brain stem had been torn which I later discovered is a pretty crucial artery. When you tear an artery in your brain, it becomes like an old garden hose. It will dry old gunk on the inside in the form of clotted blood. But because I had no idea about the [...], I went back to the footie training the next Tuesday and took part as normally as I would have before the fight.

Somewhere during training, apparently I got knocked by one of my teammates. It dislodge a bit of that gunk and flowed up to another artery on my brainstem to the part where it narrowed interrupting the blood flow going to the brain which caused the stroke. That's when things got really dramatic.

My parents were told they might have to turn off my life support. My family and friends were told to come in and say goodbye. They were all told that if I did survive, I'd probably be a vegetable. I don't know how dire things got when I was out. I would have thought of something a lot more profound to say when I woke up.

When I opened my eyes, I saw I was lying in a hospital bed surrounded by my friends and family. Some of them come from [...] state. My little brother had flown all the way back from Scotland. Some of them were crying. Someone had explained to me that I had a stroke on Thursday. I’ve been unconscious all weekend and it was now Monday.

My first thought was bugger. I missed again the footie again on the weekend. Pennant Hills was coming up against our archnemesis, North Shore Bombers. I looked around everybody in this hospital room, took a deep dramatic breath, someone’s [...] and said he's about to talk. I said, did we beat North Shore? [...] we lost. I was spewing.

Brendan: You lost, did you?

Barnaby: Yes, first lost in the season for our first grade team. A very disappointing day.

Brendan: They obviously needed you, buddy. Seven days after the attack and you were helping a mate who, as you said, being a bit of a peanut, were there no effects at all? During those seven days, you had no absolute idea that there was something happening?

Barnaby: The friend of mine that got king hit and kicked in the head while he was unconscious, he went to the hospital that night because he was bloodied and bruised and looked pretty worse for wear. I woke up, went back to my other mate's place, slept the night, went back to work, and everything was fine. I had no other effects over those seven days. I played a game of footie on Saturday and went back to training on Tuesday. It was steady as she goes.

Brendan: Thinking back about that moment—I'm sure you had numerous times—are there any regrets?

Barnaby: Not at all. If I was put in the same spot where my friend was in trouble in a fight, I'd do what needed to be done to go and try to help him out. I think my story is one of physical recovery in rehabilitation and coming back from not being able to stand still.

My friend who started the fight struggled mentally with the whole process. He came into my hospital room over those four days. I was unconscious and my family all gave him death stares because the doctors were saying there wasn’t a huge chance I would survive.

He was carrying the weight of possibly killing someone. He struggled so much that he moved from Australia to Canada. He now started a family and he's living a happy life, but he really had demons that I didn't have. I just woke up every day and was like I can't stand still because I keep falling over so I got to have more balance on my left leg. Whereas he had the demons, the things that just didn't shut up and are brushing your teeth.

I'm not trying to say I got away lightly, but I think out of the two of us, I think his struggle would have been harder than mine. I never hated him. We're no longer really good mates, we're acquaintances. But I've been in touch with him on and off over the years.

I wrote my second book. I had a biography written. I got in touch with him and asked him to write a foreword. He's a writer so he knows how to put his sentences together. I think that for me was really nice. I got a lot of meaning out of reading the forword, but I think for him, it was like a cleansing, a real line on the sand, and an ability for him to move on with his own life and drop those demons.

It could have been a nasty time, but I've got other mates who've done stupid things on nights out and no one had a stroke from them. I can't get heavy on this guy because of what happened to me. I've seen the worst thing happen and everyone gets away from it. It sucked, but it is what it is.

Brendan: It's one of those things in life, isn't it? We've all done some stupid things from time to time. Some of us (I guess) had more consequences as a result of some of our stupidity than others. Can you just talk us through, Barns, a little bit with the physical challenges that went with recovering from that stroke in 2005?

Barnaby: Yeah, no problem. It was pretty daunting. It was a really long, challenging road ahead and I still had that mindset where I didn't think I had the strength I needed to get through it. I thought I needed to find something extra.

One of my early exercises was I had to pick up a paper clip out of a bowl, and move it over into a teacup with my left hand, my affected hand. It was so frustrating. It was just so boring and monotonous. I thought there was no way in hell this is going to help me. Picking up a paperclip and moving it from one side to the other is such a meaningless, pointless exercise.

My therapist said this is the stuff you just have to do committedly, daily, and just do it over and over again. I always thought it was a waste of time, but that's the stuff that got me to where I am today.

Essentially when you have a stroke, all the signals from your brain to the affected side of your body are wiped clean. You have to relearn how to use those muscles again. My left leg just had no strength in it, literally no ounce of strength. One of my early exercises was to lie on my hospital bed and clench my bum cheeks together.

I always thought this person doesn’t know what they were talking about. Clenching your bum cheeks is not going to make anything happen. I went from a point where I was in the hospital, I literally couldn't stand still in one position because my left leg had no strength to hold me up so I just kept falling over every time I started to stand up.

After years and years of those really small tedious exercises, like the moving paper clips and clenching your bum cheeks together, eventually, the accumulation of all those small exercises gets you to a point where you can be proud of the life you're living and that's where I am today.

Brendan: I guess two things, you'd be very pleased never to see another paperclip, and when standing in line for something, are you doing your butt cheek exercises nowadays?

Barnaby: No, the butt cheek exercises are a thing of the past. A friend of mine used to be quite fascinated and interested in my stroke rehabilitation story and I used to use my left hand for a lot of different things. I've got an overly strong grip on my left hand, so I used to test it by eating cookies, chips, and things.

If I did something that I think was cool, I'd text my friend and say I've got a left-hand achievement report. I just ate a cookie from Subway with my left hand. She'd never got the point of why I was so pleased about it. It's just nice to appreciate those small things.

Brendan: Absolutely. I guess if you don't have an understanding of what you've been through, it's hard to appreciate those. But when you understand your story and where you’ve come from to where you are now, that's a massive achievement.

Barnaby: Yeah. I quite often look back at my story. When I was fascinated with the Mandelas and the Jordans, there was always one moment. You can always see the moment where they become something magical. I was always waiting for that moment.

I used to lie on my hospital bed, couldn't stand up. I knocked my wee bottle off my table one time. It was a really embarrassing, demeaning time in my life. I always just sat there waiting for that voice of God, the lightning bolt, the one thing that was going to make me go from a zero to a hero.

It never came and I was always really frustrated with it. Looking back on it from where I am today, I think there is no lightning bolt, there is no voice of God. It's just doing the same stuff over and over and the accumulation of all the small efforts in any field of life, whether it's physical rehab, whether it's just trying to be fitter and stronger, whether it's trying to be a nicer person.

You can't just go out one day and be nice to five different people and donate to charity then call yourself a nice person. It's back to back, day after day, one foot in front of the other. It's that sort of stuff.

Brendan: Absolutely, mate. Again, to give our listeners a sense of some of the day-to-day challenges you had as a result of the stroke and yes, you've gone through rehabilitation recovery, but what are some of those day-to-day challenges that you will live with forever?

Barnaby: In saying all of what I said about the accumulation of small things, that works against me as well. Over the years, because my left side has been weak or uncoordinated, I have favored my right side too much. Sitting right now talking to you on this podcast, I'm actually leaning more to the right than I should be. My right leg is getting sore knees, hips, and lower back. My left leg is getting less and less coordinated.

My physio used to say you need balance everywhere. If you use your right hand for something, use your left hand the next time. That's become unbalanced just because the left side wasn't coping properly. That's one big thing.

My short-term memory is non-existent. I'm like Dory from Finding Nemo or Ten Second Tom from 50 First Dates. I've lost count of the number of times where I've been holding something, say my phone in my left hand, then I look around and go where did I put my phone? I do that more times than I would like to think.

People might tell me their name and I'd say good day, John. How are you doing? I think he's a nice guy. Then turn around to speak to someone else and turn back around and go, sorry about that, I forgot your name again. That might be old age catching up as well, but that short-term memory is a bit of a drama.

There are quite a few, small, little frustrating things. But the main things are still functional. I may not remember John's name, but if he says my grandfather fought in World War II. He was in Timor and saved a couple of people. I'd remember that story and I'll be able to have a meaningful conversation with people, which I find has actually helped me through my challenges just being able to connect with people. That short-term memory thing is annoying, but it's not ruining my life.

Brendan: Barns, was there anybody in particular that (I guess) gave you that level of support that you needed at this crucial time in your life in this recovery place?

Barnaby: Did you ask the question so I'd say, Shea Wittig?

Brendan: No, I didn't. I'm very open-minded about these things.

Barnaby: She was living in a different state.

Brendan: Before you answer that question, though, so much of what you're saying during this interview, I've known Shea, Richie, and the guys for a long time now. You guys are such a great bonded family unit extended. I remember these conversations with Shea sharing some of the stuff that you're talking about, the accident and all this stuff, the bad state you're in.

It's only just starting to come back to me now. I was like wow, we first met each other, myself, Shea, and the guys, in 1998 and we've been friends ever since and they are godparents to both our children. Unbelievably fantastic human beings. There's so much coming back to what you're saying, these memories of the challenges and the agony Shea and the guys were going through, as you were going through.

Sorry, it just came back to me, mate. I needed to share that. This is a real moment for me actually.

Barnaby: I don't know if it's good or bad.

Brendan: It's a good moment.

Barnaby: I'm sorry to bring out some dark memories. To answer your question, there hasn't really been one person in particular. There have been several communities. One has been my family, my immediate family has been ridiculously supportive and helped me get through my situation. My extended family like Shea and my cousins in the States have always been there.

If I was struggling, I'd pick up the phone and ring someone, and vice versa. If I knew someone was struggling, I knew I'd pick up the phone and ring them. My old teammates from the Sydney Swans came into my hospital room in August 2005. They came in just to pat me on the back and said good day and make sure everything is okay. They all left.

Then in September 2005, the Swans won their first Premiership in 72 years. It was then my local footie club, the Pennant Hills Demons, all of these communities are just full of really good people just giving life the best they can.

Like I was saying about the accumulation of physical rehab, the accumulation of small goodness in communities builds strength. Most of my strength, I don't consider myself to be a particularly strong person, but to be able to get through these things, I guess I do have a little bit somewhere.

All of that strength comes from the good people around me. I've got so many good people around me from all these different communities that I can't help but be positive about things. It's a long answer to your question, but no, there's not one person that stands out.

There is one story. When I was playing footie before the stroke, my local footie club, Pennant Hills, made the preliminary final and we're red hot favorites to win the competition. We're meant to win that game, get to the grand finals, and destroy everybody. But we lost the preliminary finals against Balmain.

I came off the ground, I think I was 17 years old, bawling my eyes out. I'll never forget it. My mom came over to me confused as hell. She looked me in the eye and goes what are you doing? I said we worked so hard all season for this and we lost. She said it was a game of football. Put a bandaid on, you'll be alright.

I always thought that was really insensitive at that time. I thought that was such a hardcore. Looking back at it, I realize that good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. Rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. There comes a time when we just have to get over it and play in the puddles.

Brendan: It's interesting how you said good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people. That's something that's been going through my mind in preparation for this. I sense sometimes that in my world there seem to be bad things happening to good people more often than good things happening to bad people. Have you ever thought about that saying and maybe why life throws these good people some bad situations from time to time?

Barnaby: I thought about it a lot. I like to think I make good decisions and I'm not a bad person, but all these bad things happen. If you go by the bad things that happen to bad people, good things happen to good people, they're not terrible people. I think there's no right reason to any of it.

I think that rain falls on the just and unjust alike is about as much sense as I can make of it. If I try to go and work out why I got diabetes and a stroke, then I would just go insane trying to work out the fantasy life. Unfortunately, I don't think there is fantasy in life.

You do the best you can and all of the successful people I spoke to like Adam Goodes, haven't got bogged down. When things don't go their way, they don't go to a corner, bowl up, cry, and stop trying. Successful people, when things don't go their way, they just keep trying. If it doesn't go their way again, they keep trying. It's just an accumulation of doing the right thing every time. Trying to make sense of it slows you down so you have to get back on the horse and keep trying your hardest.

Life is so big, you'll never get your entire life being bad things. You'll have sections where more bad things than good happen. Then you'll get other sections where more good things than bad will happen. There's no explanation for it all.

You just keep planting seeds of small goodness as much as you can. Eventually, they'll all flower. It might not be next week, next month, or next year, but the more you put in, the more you get down the track.

Brendan: Absolutely well said, mate. Let's keep moving forward on the Barns’ timeline of life. Moving forward, I can't remember exactly how many years, but your first wife, tell us a little bit about the situation there. You're nursing your first wife through some terminal illness.

Barnaby: I met Angela [...] in 2013 and our lives together were such a fairytale. I wouldn't have believed it was true if I hadn't lived it myself. We met in July 2013, then Angela’s diagnosed with advanced breast cancer in August 2014. We're engaged the following month. I was baptized in Angela's church, the Coptic Orthodox Church in September, then we're married that November.

After we were married, we went on 19 legs of our honeymoon, the last of which we got back from less than a week before she joined her father in heaven. It was a really trying and difficult time watching someone you love so passionately struggling so much.

We got to a point where we got to get those big recliner chairs in our apartment and friends who were policemen will come and help just to help move my wife around because it was getting quite difficult. It was quite sad and tough seeing all of that happening.

The one glimmer of, I feel bad calling it happiness, but when my wife was in palliative care, was lying on her bed, surrounded by friends and family, and everybody was just talking, laughing, and having a really nice time, my mother came in and grabbed my arm. She said I think she's gone, Barns. Sure enough, that was the moment that Angela passed away.

The happiness in the room before that I think was, I said there’s no rhyme or reason to things, but I think Angela put so much goodness into the world of her entire life that this was coming to pay her back.

Brendan: What did you take from your short time together? What's this thing that you have taken through the next stages of your life?

Barnaby: There are quite a few different things. One of the good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people. Angela was one of the great people on earth. She gave more than most people I know would have. For her to suffer this faith, it was this fairness question again. Was it fair? No, it was totally bloody unfair.

Angela's cancer story was a smaller story than her life story. Angela had a lot of frustration, angst, and things that weren't making her happy. But the longer we went on over that 12 months, well over those years of knowing each other, the more those things started turning around.

I think that day when she passed away, she was in a good place, in a happy place. Yeah, for me, it was just confirmation that you put enough good things in, you'll get enough good things out. It might be a really shitty time but eventually it will happen for you.

Brendan: What's that next 12 months or so like for you after that moment?

Barnaby: Really difficult. I was in my mid 30s. There were the thoughts of moving on, but then thinking, well, maybe that's disrespectful. Trying to get my life in order, with houses and good solid foundations under my feet, was really difficult. But then just being out without someone that just made your life happier, was really difficult. It was quite an emotional journey. It was a really difficult one to come to terms with. Like everything else, I just thought, well, you got to keep putting good things in. I had no idea.

This was my 12 months after I lost Angela when I got diabetes. I had no idea what the future was looking like. I had no idea what was down the track. But I did know that if I sat in the corner and cried and didn't try and live a happy life, then I wasn't going to get happiness for myself in the future.

Brendan: When did you feel like you started to move forward and just restart, live your life, and start to look forward to the future? Because you've got a fantastic future that you're living.

Barnaby: Yeah, I do have a fantastic future. This is where my short-term memory buttons come into play. I couldn't tell you the exact moment and I don't know, honestly. I don't think there was a moment or a time. It just gradually things look a bit more hopeful for you in the future. I had real issues, thinking about meeting somebody else after I'd lost Angela because of the guilt. But those feelings of guilt eventually subside.

It was funny. I did spend a fair bit of time consciously looking for someone. I'd never felt further away from finding someone. Then other times you just start worrying. You just like oh, well, I might not find anyone but to be right, I'll move on. That's when I met my second wife, which was one of the most glorious meetings I've ever witnessed.

My current wife, Julia and I have a mutual friend. I was at that mutual friend's house one day for a barbecue and she said I've got someone I want you to meet. She gave me Julia's Facebook details and said get in touch on Facebook, she actually rules. We got in touch through Facebook and we chatted. We always seem to get along and have some things in common with how important family was and how important treating other people kindly was.

We had organized to go out for dinner at a pub in Epping in Sydney. I got there early, and I was sitting there waiting and quite excited. Julia was driving from work and she got stuck in a heap of traffic. She told me that she was about three seconds away from just turning around and giving up and texting me saying I can't make it, I'm sorry. So anyway, she did come out.

I’ve never really found a connection with someone that was so real. We have a commitment to each other that we just tell it as it is. If we don't like something, we'll tell the other person. If it's awesome, we'll tell them. Can I swear on this podcast.

Brendan: You can do absolutely anything. We've had people [...]. We've had people take their shirts off. We've had all sorts of stuff happen.

Barnaby: I like this. Yeah, it's [...]. Julia is one of those people that proves that you put good things in, good things happen. She was single because she was divorced from the father of her now 14-year-old daughter, who still lives in Queensland. She had come to Sydney. There were some issues separating the house and that thing tends to be ugly. So she came down here, and we had a really deep conversation, just a really nice conversation about the bad stuff that happened, but what you learned and why you're still moving forward.

We just seem to agree on the same page. We finished the first date, and she's going to hate me for telling you this story. But we went back, I walked back to her car, and went to give her a kiss goodnight. She just sat there and was like kissing a brick wall, nothing in return. But anyway, persistent.

Brendan: You've actually kissed a brick wall before so you know the feeling?

Barnaby: Yeah. The next date was with her daughter who was then 12, I think, because she said, look, her and her daughter are like peas in a pod. She said, if you don't get along with my daughter, then we're better off calling this quits now, rather than doing six months worth of work and not being right. I went out with her daughter and sat down in the booth at the pub we're at. Her daughter, who just came from school, got a notebook. She's like, right, I’ve got questions for you. Oh, [...].

She asks, what's your favorite color? What sort of pets do you want? I was like, oh, thank God. Her and I—Imogen, her name is—have a really good relationship. A bit like Julia and I, it's just real no bullshit one. If I say I'm going to be somewhere, I’ll move heaven and earth to be there. If I can't make it, I won't promise that I will and then do not turn up. If I can't make it, I'll just say sorry. You're on your own. But it's a household built on honesty. Sometimes that honesty is not all that savory. But yeah, it's a really good foundation.

Brendan: That foundation, so how does Julia and Imogen feel about Barn’s cup?

Barnaby: They give me everything I need. Julia works at a special school as a teacher's aide. She's got a lot of experience in dealing with children with challenges. That gives me what I need. Both Julia and Imogen give me the help I need with diabetes and stroke-related issues without being patronizing, patting on the back and saying really demeaning stuff. They are probably a bit more forthright, a bit more honest than I am.

I think I needed a bit of a stiffening up my spine. So they give me that and I give them a bit of softness, so it works perfectly both ways. One of my favorite parts of my life these days is just sitting out on our front porch or our back patio, with Julia, Imogen, and our dog, Walter, shooting the breeze.

Ama Marston, who's a resilience researcher and author said resilience comes from ordinary magic. That's what this place is. I can't sit here and tell you one thing we've done that's been incredible and magical and changed our lives. Just every day we have nice conversations. We help each other out where we can. Tomorrow we're taking Imogen to her netball game after we go to Julie's niece’s sixth birthday party. So real ordinary stuff, but I find it just incredibly magic.

Brendan: Absolutely magical moments. How do you see yourself, Barns? Do you see yourself as Barnaby with a disability, a man with a disability? Or do you see yourself as just Barnaby, a man?

Barnaby: With a disability but not a, get my violin out, poor me, give me money, help me, support me. I do have a disability. I was on disability support pension for a while. Technically, if you look it up in a dictionary, I have a disability, but I don't wallow, mope, and ask people to help me out because I have a disability. So yes, I'm bound to be with a disability, but I don't take the piss out of it. That's a card I've been dealt, and I play them as best I can.

Brendan: Tell us a bit about this, can I say respectfully, normal life that you're living? What's this speaking career you've got?

Barnaby: You can call it normal, by all means.

Brendan: I would say it's actually abnormal, because you're inspiring more than others.

Barnaby: When I got back on my feet after the stroke, I put a lot of energy, effort, and time into physical rehab. I was riding bikes, jogging, going for long walks, and swimming. Physically, I was better than I thought I would have been, after all the accumulation of those small exercises that I thought were a waste of time.

I got to a point where I thought I might get back to being a 100% physically perfect specimen. But if I've got a job, what's the point of being physically fine? I finished a journalism diploma at university, just after getting back on my feet after the stroke. With that diploma, I applied for jobs at a few different places, and got an interview with the ABC to be a journalist. The state editor of news at the time, called me into the office, did all the quizzes and all the application stuff.

He called me into his office afterwards and said, pass mark on this quiz. It was just a current affairs quiz, pretty basic stuff. To pass, mark is 70%, you got 40%. I can't give you a job. So in high with my tail between my legs, thinking I was going to have to go on stock shelves at my local supermarket.

But then the same guy, the state editor of news, rang me the next day and said, we've got a job in Autocue, do you want that? Autocue the teleprompter that scrolls the words the presenters read. I thought, yeah, that'd be awesome, thinking I'd get in there on the bottom rung of the ladder, and then climb the ladder and become an international journalist sitting in the corner office on a high salary.

But when I was at ABC, I applied for a few jobs internally, trying to climb that ladder. I really struggled trying to convince total strangers how much value I could bring to a role when I didn't [...] but it was just a really hard thing to do. I thought, well, finding a job, an old typical job with an employer, is going to be a difficult thing to do.

So I started a small business as a keynote speaker, talking about resilience and talking about all that the small goodness you put back into the world, brings you the strengthened need to get through your challenges. It was just a hope that turned out successfully. It was about 10 years ago. Initially, I was getting quite a few jobs but it was mostly for Rotary, sports clubs, and voluntary stuff.

Eventually, it started to be seen as a point of difference. Most speakers are out there trying to tell people to do their best and wake up early and work harder. I'll just say look, do your best, prepare yourself. And if it doesn't happen, then keep trying and eventually it will. I kept on going. I've since given speeches in San Diego, California, Calgary, Auckland and all around Australia, and on two cruise ships.

It really caught fire with the help of some really good people and good technical operators, a digital marketing group called Faster Digital, and a media production and streaming company called LookStudio Australia. Yeah, it's taken off and I'm really stoked, mate. The happiest thing about my speaking career is that I haven't had to sell out and change my message to sell a particular product. I just get up and tell people my story. If you like it, take it. If you don't, leave it.

Brendan: What's the buzz you get from speaking?

Barnaby: The buzz comes from the reaction from audiences. I was doing some speeches for a group called yLead and they held things called Altitude days for nine groups. I gave a speech to a group in Adelaide a few years ago and a young girl came up to me afterwards. She just looked at me really confused. She said, are you serious? And I said, about what? She said, do you mean you don't have to win everything, you can just try your hardest and that's okay?

I said, well, that's all I've done. It worked out for me. So yes. I think that it was kind of unfortunate, I thought in my eyes, that young people in Australia are told that if you don't win, you're not worthy. It's disappointing if you don't win.

I think that trying hard and be proud of yourself has been lost a bit. I think it's probably something that's needed in today's society, where everyone just stoops to lower and lower lengths to get ahead. They've just stopped the, I'll just give you the best crack I can. If it works, cool. If it doesn't, I've tried my hardest. I can put my shoulders up with my head up and push my shoulders back and be proud of myself.

Brendan: Can you think of the most, I guess, satisfying, exciting moment that you've had in your speaking career so far, and why was that so?

Barnaby: I can tell you exactly. I was in Adelaide again, actually, for the same group, the yLead group. After I'd finished and I got down, an ex-teacher came over to me, an old guy. He was crying. I said, oh, sorry, did you hate it? Was it that bad? He said, No, I've been trying to tell kids my whole life. As a teacher, I've been trying to pass that message on to kids my whole life, and it just doesn't seem to sink in. But hearing you give it made it feel like the kids understood it. [...] That's enough for me. That was exactly that moment for me. If I hit that one person that understands it, then I'm doing the right thing.

Brendan: That must have been a super powerful moment. I just want to digress a little bit. One thing that is certainly confined in the research about you, but our friend Shady, I asked her some questions about who this guy Barn is. You lost a finger. You made a choice. You made a choice to lose a finger. Tell us a bit more about that situation. What was involved in this decision that you made? Why?

Barnaby: It's been an interesting decision. Actually, funnily enough, I just saw my GP, who I saw when I was talking about maybe getting it cut off. He said, no, I wouldn't do it. That was about eight years ago. I went back and showed him. He's like, ah, no wonder you got problems.

Brendan: He's not kept it on ice for eight years, has he?

Barnaby: Pretty much. I dislocated my left ring finger while I was coaching an under 18 football team at Penn Hills. I joined in training one night, and my fingers didn't open fast enough to catch the ball. So it hit me on top of that finger and dislocated it. Because of the brain signal problems because of the stroke, my hand wasn't closing properly, so that finger would just stay out. When I was trying to get things out of my pocket, and functionally, that's a really awkward thing to have happening.

I made the decision. I saw my GP and asked for some professional opinions, ignored them all, went to the hospital and met this guy. He was a surgeon that I'd never met before. I just walked in and said, this finger is not very good. Can you chop it off for me? He said, normally, we don't just chop limbs off people, chop anything off people, even if you ask for it. But tell me your story.

So I told him about the stroke and the dislocation and all the dramas. He's like, that's probably not a bad request. I'll chop it off for you. So I went to a hospital and I was lying on my hospital bed with the gas coming in my mask. The surgeon came in and I said, what do you use to chop this off? He held up this pair of garden shears, a really sharp garden shears.

My arm was in a sling. While I tried to fix the dislocation first before chopping it off, I had a pin put in and had a splint. But because my arm was in a sling for so long, part of struggle recovery is that you have to keep that signal active. From my brain to my arm, the signal had gone dormant. There was nothing happening at all. When I put my arm out of the sling, I had a cerebral tremor, which is basically a shaking left hand. I can't actually hold things steady anymore.

That's not because of the amputation per se. It's more because of the brain signal issue. But it's been a big issue. I think when my GP the other day was telling me, he thought it was a silly idea to do it. I just think back if I hadn't done it, walking around with a finger that just wouldn't bend would have been, I reckon, would have been 15 times worse than having no finger at all.

Brendan: That's amazing. Is that a story you bring into your keynotes?

Barnaby: Every now and then. It's more a story I tell my niece. I tell her that I lost it when I was putting it in my nose. I keep pumping it up.

Brendan: That definitely sounds like a dad joke that one. What sort of reaction do you get from people when you're on stage and you're bringing that part of the story into the keynote? What do you notice?

Barnaby: Disbelief mostly. I think it sounds like a pretty, pretty big reaction to a small problem. Like my finger being dislocated isn't that big a problem. But the fact that it wasn't closing properly and that it had what was called a shotgun snapping closing mechanism. It did eventually close but wouldn't smoothly go like that, it snapped closed. Most people think of a dislocated finger as being not that big a deal. He just put a pin in it and put a sling in your right. But getting it chopped off seems a bit extreme.

Most people in the audience think of what they would do if their finger was dislocated. There was a very different scenario with my finger. So it's mostly just disbelief. There's a little bit of horror, but more interest, more people just want to say it.

It was funny when I married Angela, that it's all my ring finger. When I married Angela, I turned around and showed the crowd my ring on my stump. They all laugh. I turn back around and the priest got in my ear, he said, this is serious.

Brendan: It's not his day, it's your day. That decision to me, shouts out of you're a man of logic as opposed to a man of feeling. Is that right?

Barnaby: Yeah, a little bit odd. I guess I didn't think too far ahead about the repercussions and how it's going to feel and what people might think. It was just my finger’s not working. It's actually a hindrance rather than a help. So chop the bloody thing off. It's a way of thinking that gets you into trouble every now and then. I think it mostly gets you through. You do some pretty stupid things.

There was a time again when I was giving a speech in Adelaide. I quite often just forget about my physical limitations. I gave a speech on a stage at a school. Then we did some Q&A down on the platform below. The guy who was hosting it said, can you come and answer some questions like yeah, sure.

I just jumped down, landed on my left leg, which is my bad leg and my knee twained and I nearly fell over. These two young girls in the front row saw it. It was pretty innocuous but they saw it. They're like, oh my God, we thought you're going to fall over and break your leg. So yeah, it can lead to some dumb decisions but I think mostly it’s been a help rather than a hindrance.

Brendan: I just want to go back to that employment scenario you took at ABC. What are those challenges you find and around the employment side of things with the disability, with the challenges you've had, just to give people a context of that?

Barnaby: I find employment for people with disability is improving in Australia, but it's very much aimed at the employer, and how good they look if they employ people with disability, rather than aimed at the employee, and how we can help this person. Again, as I said, it's changing. Probably the best practical example of that, that ability for people with disability to get jobs, is told through a group that I've recently become involved with, called Chemism.

Chemism is a platform that pairs people with disability, with able bodied Australian entrepreneurs, to try and help them find self employment. Because a lot of people are in the situation of acquired disability. They know what they used to be able to do, but can't see where it can add value these days. So the guy that started Chemism is a guy named Eugene Cheong.

Eugene had just finished industrial design at university. He had a pretty high level job at Freedom Furniture, designing furniture, and then he had a stroke, and was a bit like me. He had pretty severe acquired brain damage. He tried getting a few jobs after he got back on his feet. He was offered jobs, unpacking boxes and doing data entry. He thought, I've got more value to add to the world than just data entry and packing boxes. He started this thing called Chemism.

The idea is that a person with disability gets in touch with Chemism, and says, I want to try marketing, digital media, sales, wherever it is they want to try, as a self employment option. Chemism has a huge, huge log of business professionals in different fields. If I go for example, Everyday Greatness, my producer and I was struggling getting promotion, because it's basically a two-man team and neither of us have any marketing credentials or background.

It consists of the odd Facebook post and a really rare newsletter on MailChimp. I got in touch with Chemism and said we need help with our digital marketing. Chemism introduced us to a group called Marketing Temps. They in turn introduced us to the group I mentioned earlier, Faster Digital, which is a digital marketing agency, and they are doing all of our promotion work for Everyday Greatness.

Numbers are going through the roof and it's getting a lot more—I hate the term—but it's getting a lot more [...] It's still not where it should be in Australia. It is getting better. But it's still a bit too much focused on the employer where it should be focused on the person with disability and the value they can bring to a particular role.

Brendan: Thanks for sharing a great insight from a man with lived experience. What does the next 10 years hold for Barns?

Barnaby: Someone asked me this the other day and whether if I hadn't had a stroke or got diabetes or lost my first wife, I'm 42. I'm done. My body wouldn't cope with ski trips to Aspen or jumping off the Grand Canyon. I'm really happy. I'm probably going to sound like an old father now but I'm so happy just spending time with my family—with Julia, my wife, Imogen, my stepdaughter, and our dog, Walter. I can't think of anything I'd rather do, so the next 10 years for me will be exactly the same as tonight. We'll be just sitting around chatting and enjoying each other's company.

Brendan: Sounds like a wonderful 10 years, mate. What or who has had the greatest impact on your leadership journey to date?

Barnaby: Specifically, leadership journey would be my father. My father has been in advertising his whole life, quite successfully, but he's never been a CEO or CFO or real top line leader. He's a really good man, he's a really nice human being, and he’s an old school gentleman. I thought, what if I could take my dad's old school gentlemaness, be ruthless and aggressive, and take down the competition, I'd be the perfect leader.

But my dad has shown me that you don't need the titles, the highest salary, the best cars, and the biggest houses to be a happy man. You just keep putting those seeds of small goodness. If they pay off, that's awesome and good on you. But if they don't, and you can get home and to a happy family, who you've helped us support and bring up, then that I think that is as much you need to know about leadership.

Brendan: Speaking of your dad and your wonderful parents, what do you remember them doing throughout your childhood that instilled this realness in you? You talk about real strength, real resilience.

Barnaby: Turning up, it's probably a bit too simple to sound sexy enough to make a thing or a person successful, but they were always there. My mother actually said to me a couple of weeks ago, she said, now that I'm getting older, I look back on my life. She said, I used to regret that I didn't have any huge trophies or awards, or charities, or foundations. I've just sort of got by, and I've had a good time, and I've got some good mates.

She said, there was a time when I thought that wasn't enough. But now looking back and watching your kids or growing up with your families, that is more than enough. My mum has taught me, literally, that just being a good human being is enough. My dad, he's a bit more reserved emotionally, but he has shown me firsthand that just being a good man is enough to get ahead in life.

Brendan: Thinking about what your parents did for you, again, you've got Julia there, your wonderful wife, and you've got Imogen. What sort of impact do you want to have for Imogen? What sort of example do you want to sit for Imogen?

Barnaby: I want to be the role model for Imoden as my father was for me. I just want to be a reliable human being. I just want to, as I said before, if I say I'm going to be there, I'll be there. Funnily enough, Julia and I coached Imogen’s netball team a couple of years ago, took them to the grand final, and then retired. We’re one for one.

That's what I want to be for Imogen, someone reliable, can offer another word of, well, I don't want to say wisdom because I think I sound like a toolbox, but a different perspective on things than she currently has. Just be that voice of reason. Try and appreciate things, good things that people do for.

Imogen asked me to help her with an assignment not long ago. She got 21 out of 22. I came home and she said I got 21 out of 22 over that math test, math assignment. I was like, oh, that's awesome. Good job. She goes, but I should have got 22. What did we do wrong? You see that point of view. So that's what I'm trying to do. Just shift that perspective from getting disappointed about things to seeing the beauty in the world.

Brendan: I'm happy to start to wrap more. I'm happy to wrap this up very soon. Are you happy to wrap it up soon? Is there any areas that you want to uncover that we haven't unpacked?

Barnaby: No, I think we're good to go.

Brendan: Fantastic. Barns, You talk a lot in your talks, your keynotes, and through the conversation today about being proud of yourself and you are good enough. How are you proud of yourself?

Barnaby: I'm proud of myself in that I haven't tried to dilute my message to please different people. I've just been the person I want to be the entire time, down where I think's right. I haven't veered from that, to try and impress people. For me, that was a really unfulfilling way of operating, when I was starting out with my speaking because if you didn't have that real, aggressive, overbearing, ruthless point of difference, people didn't give you the time of day.

Nowadays in the society we live in, it's so competitive, that if you're just a bit more relaxed, casual, and proud of yourself, then that is now a point of difference. I guess one of the proudest things I can say about myself is that I just am who I am and I haven't tried to change to fit in with different groups or people. That makes me really happy that I now live in a household full of the same attitudes, with my wife and my stepdaughter.

Brendan: Barns, you talk about not having the X-factor or realizing that you needed an X-factor. For me, what you just said is your X-factor. You're a real person. You don't bow to whatever society’s saying. You're just being that real human being. You're showing that through real strength, real resilience. That journey of life that you've been on, there's been a number of bumps in the road, but you've got back up literally consistently, and you've moved forward.

You're an inspiration to certainly myself. I know you're a massive inspiration to your family and you're a massive inspiration to many people that you come in contact with, mate. I for one, massive appreciation for you coming on and being a guest on The Culture of Things podcast, mate. I appreciate you very much.

Barnaby: Thanks so much, Brendan. It's a pleasure being here. Really nice having a chat. Thanks.

Brendan: Absolute pleasure.

The strength and resilience of Barn’s mind has helped him overcome the many matters he’s been dealt.

Barn’s is an everyday Joe bag of doughnuts who has everything he needs inside him right now.

He’s on a journey to inspire others in the world to realise the same thing.

If there is an X-Factor which separates the great leaders from the ordinary, it’s that they are genuine and REAL. 

They don’t live with excuses. They don’t build a chip on their shoulders. They know they have full control of what they do, day to day. And they know it’s the accumulation of their daily actions that makes the difference between living an ordinary life and living one that inspires others.

These were my 3 key takeaways from my conversation with Barnaby:

My first key takeaway: Leaders do their best all the time They will always give 100% in everything they do - no excuses! It’s never a ‘when I feel like it’ I’ll do my best When they know they’ve given their best. They’ll always be proud of themselves - even if they don’t win or achieve what they set out to achieve. Leaders know that doing their best all the time is good enough.

My second key takeaway: Leaders do the small things well. It’s these small everyday things, that create habits. It’s these habits repeated consistently that lead to big thing being done well. Whether it's picking up a paper clip from a bowl and putting it into a jar. Or Clenching your bum cheeks together to help build a foundation of stability. Leaders know that the small things done well, lay the foundation for greater success.

My third key takeaway: Leaders forgive. They don’t hold grudges or live with regret. Hearing Barns’s story, you may think he has every right to hold a grudge or regret some of the decisions he’s made. Not Barns - he’s built the strength and resilience to own his life and live with the cards he’s been dealt. And he’s making the most of it - every single day. He’s been able to do this, because he is a leader who forgives.

So in summary, my three key takeaways were:  Leaders do their best all the time. Leaders do the small things well. Leaders forgive.

If you want to talk culture, leadership, or teamwork, or have any questions or feedback about the episode, contact me at thecultureofthings.com or via our socials.

Thanks for joining me.

And remember, the best outcome is on the other side of a genuine conversation.

 

Outtro (music): Thank you for listening to The Culture of Things podcast with Brendan Rogers. Please visit thecultureofleadership.com to access the show notes. If you love The Culture of Things podcast, please subscribe, rate and give a review on Apple podcasts and remember a healthy culture is your competitive advantage.